Legal or Illegal – Care to guess?
From AL.com (emphasis mine):
The man charged in the fatal wreck involving two young Huntsvillians has outstanding warrants for driving under the influence, police said.
Felix Dominguez Ortega, 25, has also been arrested under the name Adan Herrera with a birth date of Aug. 8, 1985. Police said Ortega also used the name Reynaldo Martinez and Juan Sanchez.
Ortega is charged with two counts of murder. Leigh Anna Jimmerson, 16, and Tad Mattle, 19, were killed when Ortega’s pickup truck hit their car Friday night at the intersection of Whitesburg Drive and Airport Road, police said. Jimmerson was a sophomore at Grissom High School and Mattle graduated from the school last year.
Ortega has also been charged with possession of a forged instrument, driving without a license and a seat belt violation, according to police. Ortega is in the metro jail with his bond on the murder charges set at $2 million.
Sgt. Mark Roberts said police are unsure whether Ortega is an illegal immigrant. The suspect was arrested after his Monday release from Huntsville Hospital. He was in critical condition Saturday.
I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess that Mr. Ortega/Herrera/Martinez/Sanchez is not here legally.
Terrible tragedy. My heart goes out to the families.
Jimmerson’s dad is a local lawyer. Very sad occurrence.
So sad. This situation makes my blood boil. I hope Ortega dies in pain!
FWIW, Jimmerson’s dad is a former (and nor current again) co-worker of Sam Givhan.
If only the parents were aloud to take turns shooting out this murderer’s kneecaps, the message might then begin to get out to illegals & criminals- do not drive on the roads illegally and leave this country or give yourself up and be processed.
My heart goes out to the Mattle & Jimmerson families. Their pain is unimaginable.
I have just sent emails to Gov.Riley,Senator Shelby,Mike Ball, and Sean Hannity in an attempt to make as many people aware of this tragedy as possible. I encourage everyone to contact the Governor, and any other government official. When HPD officer Daniel Golden was murdered by an illegal Mexican, noone did anything. The air of political correctness is nauseating. How can it be that in Oakland , CA, a fleeing criminal was shot and killed and protestors took to the street against the police dept ? Yet, our citizens continue to be murdered,raped and robbed, and not one of us ever “take to the streets” demanding justice and action from law & policy makers ? If the city of Hunsville can rally 3000 people to a peaceful and well organized Tea Party, and 1000 people at Chaffee school to protest the HHA relocation of Councill Courts to Stone Manor apartments, why in the world can’t WE organize a march in protest of violent crimes against our citizens at the hands of illegal Mexicans. And please note, I have no problem saying Mexicans. The fear of appearing racist seems to be quite a problem for some. Which is a barrier against taking action to prevent the ever growing flood of criminals coming to the US from Mexico.
I urge you to call, write and talk about this issue with as many people as possible.
We must start somewhere !
If Mr Ortega is indeed an illegal alien and is charged with murder and the death penality is sought, then by treaty with Mexico, Mr Ortega must be allowed to talk with Mexican consular officials. I hope the police/district attorney know this so we do not get a botched case! I listened to Mo Brooks on Dale Jackson discuss the illegal alien situation but neither brought this up point of law up.
That is hit or miss. An investigator in a capital case a while back answered that with ” I left the consul a message.”
This is a tragedy, and I in no way wish to detract from that. But at the same time, I find it worth noting that Sunday’s article on the two victims noted that they were involved in “social justice causes” including “animal and human rights.” This no doubt included support for illegal alien “rights.” Assuming this is a correct reading of their views, how tragically ironic it will be if they just ended up being two more victims of our nation’s rampant illegal immigrant crime problem. How many Americans have to die before we say enough is enough?
I think American people need to speak up. Illegals and political correctness are killing this country. I think especially whites are too afraid to speak up and raise hell (I’m non-white). This is your country too – speak up! If you don’t, your kids will not have any rights in the future.
There is no indication from the media reports or police statements that the murderer was either an illegal or DUI. You might as well accuse him of being a witch. HPD did charge him a seatbelt violation though???
Art,
Did anyone here accuse him of being DUI during this accident? Not that I have seen. But he certainly broke numerous laws, resulting in the deaths of two innocents.
As for the illegal alien angle, the original post asked a question and then offered an educated guess based on information in the news article. The comments have taken a similar position. We don’t know if he is an illegal immigrant, but the known facts point in that direction.
From WHNT:
From WAFF:
—
I wouldn’t say there is no indication that he is an illegal. Hispanic man, three aliases, forged documents, no drivers license, can’t identify where he is from. Maybe he is a native of Trenton, NJ for all I know, but I wouldn’t bet money on it.
Does it really matter? Either way it would not have affected his decision to get drunk and drive and subsequent killing of two people.
Is there any immigration control system out there that would not result in immediate indefinite detention for failure to have the correct documents/tattoo/biochip on hand at all times and/or a huge pile of machine gunned bodies in the no-go zone between the border walls?
I believe the treaty, of which Nutsfortennis and Wayne speak, requires Police to advise the illegal he may call his consulate. It does not require that he actually talk to them. Of course until they verifyhis correct name they have no way of determining if he is an illegal alien or which country he is a citizen of.
Jack
Pardon me for speaking for Huntsvillians in general, particularly those on the HT site. The HT article insinuates that he was drunk by proclaiming his outstanding warrants for DUI. The article also mentions that the HPD spokesman had no knowledge of whether or not he is illegal, meaning, I guess that the reporter asked about his status, which in the case of a murder charge is irrelevant. I hope the guy never smells freedom again but trying to demonize him based on his name, appearance and a prior DUI is disingenuous.
Art,
Chill, bro. I would never want to “demonize” a double-murderer by using his past conduct to speculate that he might be a drunken illegal immigrant. After all, the only thing worse than murder is to use common sense, logic, and known facts in a way that might sound <i>mean</i>. Heaven forbid!
Walt,
Had Sen. Scott Beason’s immigration reform package been passed in the Alabama legislature this guy would not have been out of jail with a prior DUI charge, as it called for all illegals to be held if they commit a felony or DUI.
Walt,
Furthermore (in continuance of Dale’s comment), I am sick of absolutists who essentially argue that if can’t stop ALL the immigrants, we should just give up and forget border security altogether. How absurd. Using the same logic, we should disband the military since the 9/11 attackers still did their dirty work. Or maybe we should just get rid of the fire department and police force since they have not yet figured out how to prevent every house fire and every crime.
Given the flood of illegal immigrants we have right now, slowing it down to a mere trickle sounds pretty darn good.
Oh, Jack
Your preconceived notions, or bigotry, dont constitute facts. I dont see any evidence of your application of logic and even less common sense, just hyperbole. Let the legal system punish him for crimes he is guilty of like murder and not wearing a seatbelt.
Dale, Was that convicted or charged with DUI or felony? If charged is the case, I think that may fail due to the presumption of innocence and the possibilty for abuse by LE. I would expect an increase in Hispanics charged with DUI or felonies. Also, federal law only allows a locality to hold a defendant for ICE up to 48 hrs. so I think it’d pre-empt Beason’s bill. Offhand, of course as I have never
read the bill
I read the bill. http://www.teamamericapac.org/uploads/102249-3.pdf
On page 7, after line 24, add the following new
9 Section 11, and renumber the subsequent sections accordingly:
10 Section 9. (a) When a person charged with a crime
11 for which bail is required, is confined for any period in a
12 county or municipal jail, a reasonable effort shall be made to
13 determine the citizenship status of the person.
14 (b) If the person is a foreign national, the jailor
15 or other officer having custody of the person shall make a
16 reasonable effort to verify that the person has been lawfully
17 admitted to the United States and, if lawfully admitted, that
18 the lawful status has not expired. If verification of lawful
19 status cannot be made from documents in the possession of the
20 person, verification shall be made within 14 days through a
21 query to the Law Enforcement Support Center of the United
22 States Department of Homeland Security or other office or
23 agency designated for that purpose by the United States
24 Department of Homeland Security. If the lawful immigration
25 status of the person cannot be verified, the jailor or other
26 officer having custody of the person shall notify the United
Page 2
1 States Department of Homeland Security and the person shall
2 not be entitled to bond.
Dale Jackson, based on what you just posted, what happens when ICE says “call us back after he’s been convicted and completed his sentence”, their current response. Its a “feel good” measure as effective as a aspirin for a brain tumor.
Federal action is what’s needed and none seems likely so we just have to muddle thru while others bluster.
Also consider the Chinese model of assimilation, accomodation which the Han used to cope to mongols, jesuits and yankee traders.
Sorry I cut off my sentence which was ” I have never.. read the bill”
Thanks for posting. The “no bond” is unconstitutional.
Oh, Art — Aren’t you going to feel like an utter fool if it turns out that, yes indeed, he was a drunken illegal immigrant? Of course not. We’ll never hear from you again.
Walt,
Do you have an actual binding legal opinion to back up your assertion that it is unconstitutional to hold illegal aliens without bond, or are you just making that up?
Anyone who has four aliases is guilty! Sorry if you think that I am being a racist but the last time I checked my wallet, I only had one name! Who needs 4 names unless they are trying to hide something. Let me pose this question – How many names do you have and use in public??? Everyone needs to ban together and get tougher laws passed about illegals. Send them packing with a one way ticket!!! You’re either legal or illegal, there is no in between. Let’s rise up and do something about it. Can we have a meeting somewhere to discuss this and demand our rights as legal citizens?
Jack, I believe you have the Mexican loving, America hating, pomo, multiculturalist, poogressive, fellow traveling, UN loving socialists confused.
Whoops, forgot to make K sign while typing America and did not genuflect before the triptych of Che, Obama and Marx. So lose the check from Soros for the month.
However, my opinion as a citizen, is that an illegal can be considered a flight risk and so can be denied bail.
Sorry, but no one knows if the proposal is unconstitutional. The argument, “you can’t do that because it is unconstitutional” is the shield the Alabama Appleseed and other groups have used to kill immigration law. The fact is, it has never been challenged. No bond for a flight risk is legal.
I am not making it up. US Constitution grants “reasonable bail” to all charged persons. Reasonable for an illegal may be $1 million but the judge must grant bail. The ALa. Court of Appeals ruled so a few years back on the case of the hispanic (Lupian) in decatur who was charged with killing an 8 y/o kid in a wreck.
BS people are denied bail every day.
I have discovered a very interesting web site: http://www.operationfireandice.com
This web site is very informative and actually shows HPD Officer Daniel Golden if you scroll down to the bottom.
I was unable to find out if bail was denied to scum bag Benito Albarran , Daniel Golden’s murderer. He was charged with capital murder, but I never found out if bail was denied.
????
Wayne — You need to pay attention to the news more (or heck, just watch Law & Order every now and then). Based on the seriousness of the crime and the flight risk, judges remand accused persons all the time without bail. You have no clue what you are talking about.
Walt — So very sorry for confusing you with Mr. Clueless.
Weighing in simply as a moderator of sorts…
Walt, Wayne, and Art are long time commenters here. All have made valid points over time and even kept me in check when necessary. I understand this is a contentious issue, but lets try to make sure we keep the conversation at an adult level with minimum name calling and what not. Let’s leave it to the liberal blogs to shout at each other without respect.
Brian, just in case that limb you’re perched on isn’t stout enough to support my weight too, I’m perched on a nearby limb.
Questions that comes to my mind: Mr. AKA seems to have had sufficient financial resources to buy enough alcohol to become inebriated more than once, unless he stole the booze or someone generously gave it to him. Where did he get his money? Did he rob someone, commit burglary, or was he employed by someone? If he was employed, did his employer bother to check to see if he was here illegally? If not, why not? In either case, shouldn’t the employer be held responsible in some way?
“An enquiring mind wants to know”.
No offense taken. See Article I section 16 of the Ala. Constitution. That is what I base my opinion on. IT states “That all persons shall, before conviction, be bailable by sufficient sureties, except for capital offenses, when the proof is evident or the presumption great; and that excessive bail shall not in any case be required.”
Hmmm… sounds like it’s time for Amendment No. 800. Personally, there are quite a few people I would like to see remanded without bail, if they pose a danger to the community or constitute a significant flight risk.
Actually Bail can de denied or set at an inpossibly high amount if someone is a flight risk or a danger to the community.
Old Prosecutor,
How does that work, exactly? The constitutional provision Wayne cited seems pretty ironclad, and I searched the constitutional amendments and could find none that altered the constitution on this.
My cousin was the HPD officer that spotted the truck, and was the first one to chase him. He saw the truck hit those kids, and could only powerlessly stand by as they burned. He said it was tough to watch.
People are angry. That is understandable. But the rule of law must prevail, and will prevail, and those who want to see Ortega to die in pain or would like the see parents shoot his kneecaps out need to be reminded that pathetic, third-world countries dispense justice in this manner. Illegal or not, Ortega has the right to due process. Illegal or not, Ortega has the right to a lawyer. Illegal or not, Ortega has the right to a fair trail.
Jack – A defendant in any type of case other than a capital case has a right to a bond. However the amount of that bond is up to the Judge (and there are numerous factors he can consider)and any review of the amount of bond takes months of appeal and higher courts are reluctant to overturn the bond.
Additionally if the Judge feels the defendant is a flight risk and/or a danger to others he may require the defendant to deposit security with the clerk in the amount of the bond and/or place the defendant in the custody of a designated person and/or restrict the defendants travel, associations or place of abode while on bond and/or require the defendant to return to jail during specified hours or impose any other condition the court deems reasonably necessary.
If the defendant violates any condition of a bond it can be revoked.
So technically bond can not be totally denied except in capital cases but a bond can be so high as to may it unattainable for a defendant.
The fact that no one here sees that the real issue is the LAX laws regarding DRUNK DRIVING shows the pure ignorance of this town. These are the same people that will sit around and let all their friends drink multiple cocktails/beers and then get in their car—putting us all at risk.
If you check with the DA’s office, you will find that the city of Huntsville’s DUI Task Force Unit has been recognized for the most DUI arrests in the STATE. As to the number of times our city has been NUMBER ONE in the state for the amount of DUI arrests, I am not sure of.
But it is a fact worth checking if anyone is under the impression that our HPD officers are not doing enough. They work their butts off !
AND, another thing. Let’s not forget that HPD Officer Eric Freeman was murdered in cold blood by a drunk driver that had caused an accident.
If anyone wants to complain about traffic safety check points again, please keep in mind that safety check points are just that. HPD is trying to keep our citizens safe by taking cars off the street driven by people without insurance, license, and even catching people with outstanding warrants, and OH YES, driving drunk. Get off the backs of the police dept !
I think the DUI laws are sufficient, if not a bit of an overkill at times. They certainly keep me from drinking and then getting behind the wheel.
Brian, it doesn’t require a DUI law to keep me from drinking and then getting behind the steering wheel. Even when I was still physically able to get out and about it was a sense of personal accountability and responsibility that worked for me.
Georgia,
I don’t want to speak for Gina, but I think it’s more of the lax punishment than the lax enforcement that is the issue. The HPD can do a fine job, but if lawmakers and judges don’t do their jobs well, then the system is not working. I don’t understand why someone can have several DUI convictions and be driving. At some point you’ve got to lock them up for a long while.
Brian, Are you attending the meeting tonight?
Probably not, I’ll likely have a late night at the office. Reactionary plans on attending.
Drink and Driving = no self-control and no integrity. I noticed too many people in this country have this problem - I feel very sad for them and their families. You can drink – just don’t drive. Where I am from – any DUI is a crime – if you kill someone – you will be hanged. DUI is a selfish act.
Perhaps “Old Prosecutor” can verify better but…
AL law on DUI has changed.
AL law now has a new 5 year rolling wave limitation DUI law with respect to minimum sentencing. This law would allow someone who simply did not get caught to get a first time sentence if he/she had not been caught drunk driving in the last 5 years. In other words, only the last five years of convictions are used for minimum sentencing. MADD’s proposal to add ignition/breath analyzer locks (”Ignition Interlock”) to convicted DUI’ers as part of probation. See: http://www.madd.org/Drunk-Driving/Drunk-Driving/Campaign-to-Eliminate-Drunk-Driving/Ignition-Interlocks.aspx
I suspect the reason the felony DUI has changed is because the jails were filling with DUIs or to protect certain Legislatures’
The police enforce the law, they do not make it. Change the laws and you will have a better community.
Actually the felony DUI law has been changed several times and on several of those cahanges there were unintended results.
Initially the 4th DUI period was a felony. Then the Alabama Appellate Courts ruled that you could not use out of state convictions to make the 3 priors (in other words only Alabama convictions count).
The legislature tried to correct that but somehow a 5 year limitation was placed in so only priors that occurred in the past 5 years could be counted toward the priors.
Now there is more legislation pending to correct that.
Further there is now an issue of whether DUI convictions in Municipal court can count toward the three priors.
Everytime they fix it, they screw it up.
Pursuant to Rule 7.2 of the Rules of Criminal Procedure, anyone can be denied bond if bond will not reasonably assure the defendant’s appearance (which it won’t with an illegal), or that the defendan’t’s being at large will pose a real and present danger to others or the public at large (having drunken illegals on the roads poses a real and present danger to the public).
No it says if def being at large…..then the court may impose least onerous conditions in 7.3b such as put him in care of custodian, restrict travel, day release…. I have never heard of the day release being used though it does not sound like a bad idea.
GET OUT IF YOU ARE HERE ILLEGALLY<<<<<<GET OUT!!!!!!!!!
I cannot believe that you are taking something that affected people in my personal life (Tad was in my YSA group at church) and making it political. You are taking our personal tragedy and trying to advance your own means. If Tad’s family wants to politicize it, let them. If Leigh Anna’s family wants to politicize it, let them. But do not sit here on your high horses and call for shooting Ortega, who last time I checked is still a human being regardless of his immigration status, in the legs. The Mattles wouldn’t do that. They’re good people. And if Tad was with Leigh Anna, then I’m sure her family was a good one, too.
I don’t want to tell you not to debate the subject of illegal immigration because it is a hot button issue, but I want to remind you that there are people who this actually affects in a personal way who are reading these comments or hearing them on the news or radio. These comments are not right for those of us who are grieving to hear or see.
Discuss the issue, but don’t personalize it…not yet, at least. Not until you know exactly how the Mattles and the Jimmersons and all of the friends and family of these two wonderful teenagers feel.
Janet, first of all I am deeply sorry for what happened to Tad and Leigh Anna. Nobody should have to go so early in life and under such terrible circumstances.
As to your comment, this is a public forum and people with disparate opinions come here. Each comment is the opinion of only the person leaving it. I would appreciate it if you don’t approach this site as a homogeneous, group think forum. One person said shoot Mr. Ortega in the legs. I know you can’t be shocked that someone might hold that view (there are a lot of people out there). Another commenter rebuked him (or her). Diversity of opinion.
As I see it the stark reality is that if Mr. Ortega had not been driving drunk in Huntsville that night your friend would still be alive. It may seem crass to look at possible political solutions to decrease the likelihood of similar events happening in the future, but that is what politics is all about. Nearly every (if not simply every) political decision made in or policy set by this country is done order to have some effect on people’s lives and is often in response to unfortunate events. No one wants to see innocent people (especially teenagers) harmed and if there is a way to minimize such occurrences in the future through political means then I say go for it.
Janet – this is bigger than your “personal tragedy”. There are people all over the US who are in the exact situation in which you find yourself – grieving for friends and family killed by someone who should’nt be in the US.
How are we “taking” your tragedy to advance our “own means”? This is a public issue: occured on City streets, reported in the media, discussed by Government officials, which will almost certainly result in changes to public policy. Mayor Battle met with Governor Riley in Montgomery before the funerals were even held – are they taking your tragedy?
Reviewing the comments, I find that almost all are discussions of legal issues (DUI, Bond).
I understand that you’re in pain, but life goes on. I’m sorry that you’ve had to confront that fact at such a young age.
Janet is what Generation Y or Z? It’s that “ME” generation that can’t think beyond themselves. When I was 17, I lost a close friend to a drunk driver and her sister was left paralyzed. I know what Janet is going through – “it’s not fair…” Unfortunately life is not fair and sooner you realize it – better you will handle all those nasty things will happen in life. Don’t take our comments personally. We support you but illegal Aliens and DUI are big problems in this country.
Yes, it is bigger than a personal tragedy. There are actually more people who grieve over friends and family killed by someone who is here “legally”. (I’m not one to actually enjoy this whole love of saying that our nation belongs to only those who have certain documentation. That Manifest Destiny personality trait we inherited from the English is not a good one. America is just one of many nations on one of seven major landmasses in this world, and us claiming it as though we’re somehow special because our ancestors got here before people decided that it could only belong to a certain group of people is rude and hateful…it goes against what we claim to believe in.)
You are dehumanizing a situation by taking an opportunity to point out that it is just another illegal doing something wrong. I don’t hear the mass outpouring of wanting to do harm to others (which is on other sites, too) when its a white guy that does this kind of thing. You have found that this tragedy can help further your cause.
As for my age, I think beyond myself all the time. So do MANY of my friends. I am the type of person who joins 100 causes to improve the world because I want to leave it in a better state than I found it.
You think I don’t get that life isn’t fair? I’ve seen more crap in my life than you could shake a stick at. I’ve seen the abuses of the foster system as a foster sibling. I’ve seen intolerance towards people because they’re disabled. I’ve seen hatred of people who are difference races or religions in my own life. I’ve seen a wonderful family get shattered, not once, but twice. Remember the Franklins? I learned when I was 14, the day after I was at Sara’s house, what it was like to no longer have that veil of innocence. That was the very last time I ever thought that life could ever be fair to good people. Life is only fair to people who don’t deserve it to be.
Oh, and jumping to the assumption that anyone who has several aliases is here illegally is stupid. I had an uncle who was born in this country who had a lot of aliases. Admittedly, he was a criminal, but he was a natural born American citizen. I doubt if a story had broke about him drunk driving or being in an accident that killed two teenagers you all would be so worked up calling for tougher laws.
I do appreciate being called stupid…
Stupid as I may be, I think it is an entirely reasonable conclusion in this day in time to suspect someone is an illegal alien given the following facts (two of which you omit in your assessment of my intelligence):
Despite my considerable stupidity it looks like I got this one right according to the HPD. I guess this must be a blind squirrel/nut situation.
I disagree with your ultimate conclusion. For example, recently a police officer was killed by (as I understand it) a perfectly legal resident of our great union in the line of duty during a routine traffic stop. The AL legislature responded by looking at stiffer penalties for evading police (you would call that politicizing a tragedy). I think that is a good thing and I support it.
It is not stupid for Brian to assume illegal status. He would be right 95% of the time. An Hispanic with fake Id and multiple names is likely to be illegal. Maybe not, but likely.
Where did I say YOU were stupid? I said your attitude was stupid. Insulting the fact that you made a prejudiced jump from someone’s race, committed a crime of forgery, and the fact they had aliases is not insulting you as a person, just your attitude towards the world.
If you took out the race card, and it was just multiple aliases and forgery, would you think this person was illegal? If it were a white person, would you think it? I HIGHLY doubt it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but using your logic there was not even the hint of suspicion of Mr. Ortega’s legal status? Not a bit? No probable cause for the HPD to notify ICE or even look into his legal status, right? If you’re looking for craven political correctness where plain facts are overlooked because they might make you uncomfortable then you have come to the wrong place. Also, if you take away facts then the assessment can change since the assessment is based upon facts.
If this incident had of happened in Huntsville 50 years ago, the Mexican (Ortega) would have been hanging from a tree by Saturday morning. Case closed and justice delivered.
And about 100 other illegal Mexicans ressiding in Morgan/Madison County would be packing their bags and catching the first bus back to El Mexico.
It is a pitty Huntsville no longer has men to back words with deeds. Let’s just spend all day discussing how this was such a tragedy on an internet blog waiting for Obama’s federal government to solve this problem….and in 6 months another Huntsville police officer will be killed by an illegal or some other tragedy will occur at the hands of an illegal Mexican….and more Mexicans will continue to flow in.
You mean like the Klan?
He’ll get a trial and Justice will be served. You can keep your lynch mobs.
I’m looking for you to admit that it is a bit presumptive to assume that because a man is a different race that you suspect him of being an illegal immigrant. We also have a neighbor to our north with relatively open borders and people who look a lot like you. I bet you wouldn’t even question it if someone from Canada came across and was wanted for the same crimes. You would dismiss that possibility so quickly that it isn’t even funny. That is the stupidity of this situation. There are so many people who come to this country legally and end up staying past their visa times, and if they don’t look a certain way, we don’t say anything. We only suspect illegal immigrants or, as they get called if they happen to look Arab, terrorists if they don’t match the bright white skin tone that so many people seem to know and love.
Young HSV Accountant, are you going execute all the people who are here legally who commit some kind of crime? Are we going to start executing people for all people who do something that ends in a tragedy, even if it was a complete accident or unintended? Or are you just going to limit it to Hispanics? Are you just going to punish this one race?
Every generation has a race that divides them. The “us vs. them” mentality. It’s led to lynchings of black Americans. It’s led to the Holocaust where Jews and other non-Aryan races were slaughtered. Some of you are debating the legal issues, but sometimes that’s how the persecution starts. Sometimes, enough people get mad about an issue and begin seeing this big threat, and that’s how hatred starts. That’s how crimes against humanity occur.
For the record, I also do not condone lynch mob justice.
Tell me where I presumed that Mr. Ortega is an illegal alien due solely to his race. My guess, which turned out to be accurate, was made based on the totality of the facts, not on the single fact that he has a name (well, names) that sounds different. Can you not grasp that?
BTW, if I’m such a prejudicial bigot, as you’re implying, then why would I have written this post over two years ago suggesting we should relax our immigration laws to make it easier for willing workers to come here? If I hate brown people why would I want more of them?
I’m saying that if you took out his skin color, you wouldn’t suspect it, though and you won’t admit that. If you had those same facts with a white face and a European sounding name, you wouldn’t go, “Ah, bet he’s an illegal.” You wouldn’t have decided to come on here and post that you figured he was, thus we end up with people who are calling for lynch mobs.
Geeez where to start Janet…
“I’m looking for you to admit that it is a bit presumptive to assume that because a man is a different race that you suspect him of being an illegal immigrant. ”
HE WAS
“We also have a neighbor to our north with relatively open borders and people who look a lot like you. ”
Yeah that illegal Canadian issue is a real problem. Does it happen? Yes. Is it close to the same thing? No.
“I bet you wouldn’t even question it if someone from Canada came across and was wanted for the same crimes. You would dismiss that possibility so quickly that it isn’t even funny. That is the stupidity of this situation.”
I think your statement shows the stupidity of this situation. You want to just allow everyone in and not look at the consequences. Your argument against the angry people about this is that they would not be angry about something else? Let me know when an illegal Canadian kills a cop or 2 kids.
“There are so many people who come to this country legally and end up staying past their visa times, and if they don’t look a certain way, we don’t say anything. We only suspect illegal immigrants or, as they get called if they happen to look Arab, terrorists if they don’t match the bright white skin tone that so many people seem to know and love.”
Please, find one statement on this site about how illegal Arab’s are terrorists. Hell, find on situation where an illegal Arab’s actions are discussed.
This is the problem with the pro-illegal crowd loses it’s way, you have no way to defend this situation. Yet, you stake out an impossible “let’s all get along or you are all racists” position. Were not talking about a guy getting a job somewhere, were talking about a repeat offending, drunk driving, aliases using, kid killing illegal alien. Personally I am more pissed at the businesses and churches that help these guys than the men/women themselves. Those who provide assistance to Ortega contribute to the tragedy. No jobs/assistance no illegals/Ortega.
Dale, first of all, I would prefer not to talk to an inhuman person who accuses the mother of one of the victims of being responsible for the deaths. Second, we don’t know that Canadians aren’t down here perpetrating crimes, and we don’t really care. Why? What makes you look at a Canadian differently than a Mexican or any Latino/a? What is the big difference? If it’s not skin color, then is it the language?
As for Arabs, I was referring to Americans being quick to judge a particular race a certain way when they see them. Shortly after 9/11, anytime you would hear of any crime committed by someone who looked Arab, it was okay to call that person a terrorist. I’m sure you probably did it at the time (given your general contempt for non-Dale people), and don’t even remember it.
You want me to defend what happened? Okay, if he is from Mexico, have you looked at the horrific things that happen in that country on a daily basis? We think it’s bad here and that “they” have brought all this violence towards us because of their lifestyles. We don’t take into account what they could be trying to escape. They could be just like our ancestors who founded this country. They could be people fleeing for a better life. Looking for hope for their children. Who are we to say that this country is only for us? Who are we to say anything is only for us? No one was given America. It was uninhabited. First, my “Native” ancestors came here and they didn’t mind sharing the land. Then, my European ancestors came and they did mind sharing. They came with the mindset that we still carry in this country that if we see it and we want it, then it belongs to us and only us.
The problem with illegal immigration is not the illegals. They’re just people looking for something they didn’t have. We can’t fault them for wanting something. When he wrecked his car the other night and killed my friend, then I don’t think he was doing it to thumb his nose at the government or you. I think he was doing it because he was trying to escape a police officer and preserve a way of life that was better than what he left.
Janet, if you don’t wanna deal with people like m then stay in your little bubble. I enjoy talking ot people like you because nothing exposes the absurdity of your position more than your words. You better toughen up, you are in for a rough, rough, rough, ugly life.
“we don’t know that Canadians aren’t down here perpetrating crimes, and we don’t really care. Why? What makes you look at a Canadian differently than a Mexican or any Latino/a? What is the big difference? If it’s not skin color, then is it the language?”
I asked you for an example of Canadians coming over and committing crimes. You call me a racist. The reason “no one cares” is because its not an epidemic.
“As for Arabs, I was referring to Americans being quick to judge a particular race a certain way when they see them. Shortly after 9/11, anytime you would hear of any crime committed by someone who looked Arab, it was okay to call that person a terrorist. I’m sure you probably did it at the time (given your general contempt for non-Dale people), and don’t even remember it.”
Well, that is just asinine. Again, another baseless allegation.
“You want me to defend what happened? Okay, if he is from Mexico, have you looked at the horrific things that happen in that country on a daily basis? We think it’s bad here and that “they” have brought all this violence towards us because of their lifestyles. We don’t take into account what they could be trying to escape. They could be just like our ancestors who founded this country. They could be people fleeing for a better life. Looking for hope for their children.”
So because life sucks in Mexico, we should import their problems to North Alabama and America? If you wanna save the world, go to Mexico and save it.
“Who are we to say that this country is only for us? Who are we to say anything is only for us? No one was given America. It was uninhabited. First, my “Native” ancestors came here and they didn’t mind sharing the land. Then, my European ancestors came and they did mind sharing. They came with the mindset that we still carry in this country that if we see it and we want it, then it belongs to us and only us.”
We aren’t talking about things from 200 years ago, we are talking about today.
“The problem with illegal immigration is not the illegals. They’re just people looking for something they didn’t have. We can’t fault them for wanting something. ”
We agree, the problem is employers AND politicians like Mayor Tommy Battle who do nothing.
“When he wrecked his car the other night and killed my friend, then I don’t think he was doing it to thumb his nose at the government or you. I think he was doing it because he was trying to escape a police officer and preserve a way of life that was better than what he left. ”
“This shows the flaw in your thinking, he was fleeing and that’s ok because he wanted to continue to live a good life in a country he did not belong. He was selfish and his selffishness killed your freind. You may be ok with that, but I try to place myself in your shoes and am unable to find a way to be ok with any of this.
You don’t think I’m tough. I’ve dealt with monsters like you my whole life. I’ve dealt with people being hatemongers since I was a child. I think I’m plenty tough. That doesn’t mean I have to like it.
It may not be an epidemic, but I’m saying it does happen and you don’t care that it happens with them. I want to know why you REALLY don’t care. If it was happening in the same numbers, would you talk about how horrible Canadians are? Would you go on your little hate-filled talk show with all your followers and talk about how great and wonderful it is to hate those white folks up there who come down and do things to us poor, poor Americans who can’t do a thing to stop it. No. You’d ignore it. You would probably look the other way because it’s not going to ever click in your head that the difference is not the proportion size that commit the crimes. It’s the race.
Okay, how did you react to Arabs after 9/11? Call for all of them to be deported to ’cause they couldn’t possibly be here illegally?
When life sucked in Asia, the Native Americans came here. When life sucked in Europe, the Europeans came here. When life sucks in Mexico, though, we expect the Mexicans to stay and suffer and die? What does that say for us?
No, everything that has happened in this world has to do with our history. The future always to do with the history. If you forget where you came from, then you don’t know where you’re headed.
No, the problem is not those people who employ them or the politicians who don’t change the laws here. It’s our attitudes and our policies that do nothing to help the people of Mexico. If our country refuses to help Mexico end its struggles, then we can’t expect not to receive more people fleeing.
I’m not happy that my friend is dead, but I am okay with it. That doesn’t say anything bad about my character or that there is something wrong with the way I think. It just says that I am not one to hold a grudge against a man for something he didn’t intend to do. I’m not even one to hold it against someone who did intend a crime to happen. (Again, remember, I’m the kind of girl who forgave her friend’s brother for killing members of his own family and nearly killing her friend.) How do I forgive people so easily? I remember they’re human. It would probably do you a bit of good if you could do that, too.
Dale Jackson = monter… Felix Ortega (murderer) not a monster. Odd.
I am going to ask you a question for the third time. Can I get some example of Canadians coming over and committing crimes at an epidemic rate?
I would definitely not ignore it if it did happen, sorry to burst your hypothetical bubble.
The history of the world is just that, history. I have nothing to do with anything other than what happens today. What I see today is an influx of crime and low wages for Americans coming from Mexico, that’s my problem. Their race is irrelevant.
I’m sorry you think everything is about hate and emotion from me, you are wrong. You want to forgive murderers of your friends, fine, but don’t expect the rest of the world to not hold a grudge.
Lastly, as for us helping Mexico the first story on google in a search for “America, aid to Mexico” give me this nugget: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-03-08-bush-aid_N.htm
“Before leaving Thursday, Bush said in a series of interviews with Latin American journalists that overall aid to the region has almost doubled since he took office, from $862 million to $1.6 billion as of November.”
Oddly enough it’s about cutting aid, but don’t let the facts get in the way. Your thoughts?
You are a monster for two reasons:
1. Your posting of the comment relating to the public that a man watched my friend burn alive and flail his arms. You may not get as graphic of an image from that as I do, but I see the person that I would see at church and I hear him and then I think of a car fire (which I know what those look like from personal experience) and him going through the agony of that. Then, I think of my friends picturing that in their heads. I think of the families of the two victims picturing that. I think of the people who didn’t even know Tad and Leigh Anna picturing that, and I think you’re a monster for sharing it. There’s a reason that they didn’t discuss what it looked like on the news, because that’s not responsible. It is irresponsible to make people suffer like that.
2. You call anyone who aids illegal immigrants in anyway responsible for this, and you do not make an exception for Leigh Anna’s mother. You claim she basically killed her own daughter. You don’t see calling her a murderer as being something that only a vile and repulsive human being would do? Odd.
You see, you’re a monster because you inspire hatred. You want people to hate. You don’t care what the result is, but you want people to hate.
I never said it was an epidemic. I was, like you noticed, giving you a hypothetical, and, forgive me, but I really doubt that you would care if it were Canadians. You couldn’t just tell by looking that they weren’t here legally, so I doubt you would get so worked up.
You don’t have a reason to hold a grudge. It didn’t affect you personally. Grudges are for those who are personally affected. How did this accident change your life? How did it take away someone you know? It didn’t. You don’t know these people. You don’t care about these people. You don’t care about Tad or Leigh Anna. You just care about getting rid of the Mexicans. That’s all you care about.
That article is from 2 years ago when Bush was in office. Yes, aid had doubled under him, but as you noticed, the aid has dropped off more recently. And it will probably continue to drop. How will this be reflected in things that happen in Mexico? Things will get worse there. How will that affect us? More people will come. You want to fix the immigration problem, start a drive to make sure that we fix the drug cartels in Mexico. Start a drive to take down corruption in their country. Start a drive to help make it better for them and give them more incentive to stay there. Focus on what it is that causes the problem, and try to fix it, instead of inspiring hate through such vitriolic speech.