The pitchforks are out in south Huntsville over public housing
I saw this coming a mile away.
The Huntsville Housing Authority this month roiled a quiet neighborhood along Byrd Spring Road with its first large-scale foray into south Huntsville, bringing public housing to the 50 units of Stone Manor Luxury Apartments.
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Stone Manor and three small apartment buildings near Weatherly Elementary School will now be used to provide housing for low-income families being moved out of Councill Courts.
The first 56 units of Councill Courts alongside Huntsville Hospital fell last fall. The 140 families remaining at Councill Courts could be moved within months. Long-term plans call for the elimination of all 11 large housing clusters downtown.
The article also refers to a 30 year old single woman who currently lives in Stone Manor, but makes too much money to stay there (which is a strange thing to say in America). She claims that a Huntsville Housing Authority employee told her to “get pregnant” if she wants to stay.
I must say I’m none too pleased with what Huntsville councilman Bill Kling had to say about the matter:
“I’m glad they did what they did,” said Kling. “I think it will be better instead of having a concentration in one area of the city. I think spreading it out will help to diffuse neighborhood problems.”
When you put it that way, Bill, it doesn’t sound so great. From a law enforcement and public safety perspective it seems like it would be preferable to keep problems isolated where they can be contained, not spread them around like butter.
I have a vested interest in this story since I live in the affected neighborhood. I’ll write more about this later when time is not so scarce including my opinion and details about the upcoming community meeting on 6 April.
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I remember reading several studies about early adopters of this ‘dispersal’ philosophy last year (memphis and chicago). Bottom line was, it is a bad idea for police/social service delivery and transportation services all around. I am trying to find the data again, will pass it along if I do.
You can read about the Memphis experiment here. It does not seem to be working out terribly well.
Bottom line is they moved the projects away from Blossomwood. Isn’t that what is really important?
That’s good stuff to know. Has the story made it on any of the local news networks?
It seems that you are raising the two issues to consider in your blog posts regarding this. On the one side, and what I imagine Kling is trying to address, the hope of deconcetrating poverty is that it creates opportunities for families to break the cycles of poverty. Families can send their children to better quality schools, and be in an atmosphere where poverty is not pervasive. Of course, if you view this with primarily a law and order lens, then you can raise issues of crime that are associated with public housing.
In that Atlantic article you referred to in your previous post, one of the theories that George Galster, a professor at Wayne State interviewed for the piece, raised was that each neighborhood has a “tipping point”–a threshhold of the poverty rate that coincides with the crime rate. Once the rate hits a certain point, then it rises dramatically. The other factor is to consider the neighborhoods where families are relocating–the article referred to a number of families that relocated into moderately poor/declining areas. My sense is that the areas they are moving to in South Huntsville are a little stronger and, depending on the spread and concetration, could help impoverished families more than hurting the community at large.
WilliamC – about the ‘tipping point’ – much of the area in South Huntsville West of the Parkway is at or past the tipping point. The apartment complexes up Golf Road are fairly high crime areas, the apartments behind Main Street South are crime areas. This just adds to an existing problem. Whitesburg has already seen an erosion in test scores.
I think this is a bad idea.
I agree with Reactionary’s assessment of SW HSV, although Byrd Spring Rd. has been the borderline. This new public housing unit would stress that barrier.
So where will the children from this housing experiment go to school; Weatherly, Whitesburg, or Chaffee?
I would guess Chaffee Elementary, and Whitesburg Middle then Grissom. Where are the three apartment buildings near Weatherly? I cant think of any apartments very close to the school.
A few thoughts from former Huntsvillian, now in DC… I asked if he had someof the data I was looking at last year..if anyone is interested. Sorry for the length!
Well first of all, I think that the reaction to dispersing people is mixed. And in Huntsville’s situation, I am pretty sure you are stuck with this plan because of the political interest in getting the projects out of downtown –esp. away from conventions at the Embassy Suites, etc. And have you driven down south parkway lately? It’s not exactly prime real estate anymore.
I also think I remember reading in the H’ville Times at some point that something like 2/3 of eligible residents in the housing program are in the private market via vouchers anyway — so to some extent these people are already out there. You could interpret the Memphis article this way — i believe it was in the Atlantic. Those were working class neighborhoods that were already doomed to slide due to a host of factors.
Anyway, its an interesting situation and I think the most accessable starting point is The Urban Institute’s website. (explore the left pane for more options i think). They have some studies on this sort of thing — and also the more extreme “forced” relocation methods. From what I remember reading, results are definitly mixed. Some measures improve while others don’t, etc.
If you want to go to the library you can access electronic journals (i would think madison county is advanced enough now for this). I’v used the following articles in the past. The George Galester piece on spatial mismatch is supposed to be a “classic”. Hope this is a start at least.
Helen F Ladd, Jens Ludwig. “Federal Housing Assistance, residential location, and educational oppurtunities: evidence from Baltimore”. The American Economic Review. Nashville: May 1997. Vol. 87, Iss. 2; p. 272
Galster, George. “Comparing Demand-side and Supply-side housing policies: Submarket and Spatial perspectives”. Housing Studies. Oct 1997; 21, 4. 561.
Yates, Judith, & Christine Whitehead. “In Defense of Greater Agnosticism: A Response to Galster’s ‘Comparing Demand-Side and Supply-Side Housing Policies’”. Housing Studies. May 1998; 13, 3. 415.
the ones by weatherly are behind the southern market off bailey cove.
From the Times:
According to tax and real estate records, the authority in January purchased three smaller apartment buildings on Mahogany Row in southeast Huntsville. The dead-end, tree-lined street runs along Aldridge Creek near the intersection of Bailey Cove Road and Weatherly Road, about a mile south of Grissom.
Lundy has said he hopes to provide public housing in all parts of the city, not just north and west Huntsville. “We are committed to deconcentrating poverty,” he told The Times in October.
The renovated southeast buildings, each one containing four separate units, are part of the Timberbrook Luxury Apartments and Townhouses. The authority paid between $218,000 and $230,000 for each building.
This is outrageous for the HHA to be purchasing premium properties (Mahogany Row) in premium areas thereby dislocating Tax Paying Citizens. This goes beyond just redistributing tax receivers to all parts of the city, this is sticking it to the achievers and hard workers of the city.
Out of curiousity, what was the neighborhood reaction when the apartments were first build? Probably similar. Everybody knows renters bring nothing but pain hardship and lower property values.
Just a thought, but isn’t the point of Public housing to cover basic needs. Isn’t “luxury” apartments a little more than a need of shelter. I was told that these apartments have a pool, something I don’t have. Not that I don’t want public housing available for people in need, but perhaps it should be a place they would eventually like to leave and improve from – through hard work; not Housing Authority upgrades. Nice to know how my tax dollars are spent. It also seems as though the people being asked to leave should at least have the opportunity to complete their leases. 60 days for some is not enough time to come up with a deposit, first & last months rent, moving expenses, and switching utilities. This was a poor decision all the way arround.
Moeve ‘em to my neck o’ the woods. Should they step out of line, I’d be more than happy to pop a cap in their azz.
It would be interesting to know where the liberals/progressives that live in the affected area stand? I would bet they are hollaring NIMBY as well.
I live in SE Huntsville and am appalled at the behavior at the meeting. I didn’t know there were so many backwards people. I heard people using the “n” word and burn baby burn. I do not want to be lumped in with that group!
I do welcome my new neighbors and WILL NOT be “hollaring NIMBY”. I hope that people will realize that a cooperative attitude and willingness to participate in their community will improve their neighborhoods.
SEResident – I am so proud that you are so open-minded and understanding. Sorry that you’re didn’t realize your neighbors were so rude and angry about those poor black folks moving into their backyards. I think you need to move out of SE! How can you stand living among those racist rednecks? LOL
SE Res. I did not hear those remarks. The worst I heard was some old codger say he was the wrong color to be section 8. and he was the standing by himself. Very possible those remarks were made but for you to judge 1000 people on the remarks of 1 or 2 or however few is not too different than judging all project residents on the actions of a few of their residents.
I heard many comments made. My neighbor, sitting on the other side of the cafeteria had to leave b/c of the language being used. I am not judging all of the people who attended the meeting, I know of many that where concerned that the attitudes and comments would perpetuate the myth that all of south Huntsville is racist. And Eddie, this is my backyard also. Has been since 78.
There were people at the meeting who were well informed and had valid arguments against HHA. It was unfortunate that the hecklers detracted from their points.
As a person who will be moving into one of the apartment complexes soon, I am appauled at the lack of knowledge from most of the people complaining. As I understand it, there are very distinct guidelines for a current HHA resident to be able to move. Lets get this straight. I have never been in trouble with the law, my children are very well behaved and I don’t, nor have I ever been the type of person who sit on my behind and “collect assistance”. But I did what I had to so that my children would have a roof over their head and that meant me coming to public housing. That also meant me swallowing my pride. I didn’t grow up in housing actually grew up in a well to do neighborhood in Limestone county. However, what do you do when both of your jobs downsize? Are some of you really ignorant to the fact that some of your current neighbors may be a housing resident on a voucher? And to the people that made the comments about the test scores of the nearby schools going down. I WILL NOT be allowing my children to attend any of the schools in SE Huntsville, because I am not going to allow them to be subjected to the vile parents of his would be classmates.
Question…
Are you the exception or the norm?
Even though I am totally against HHA moving these people to SE neighborhoods. I must say I do feel bad for those “good” kids from projects who will be attending SE schools. Not all people from projects are bad – we all know that. I can’t imagine these project kids have to compare and compete with the middle class kids, Ouch! I think there will be many incidents at schools.
Dale,
I only really know a couple of my neighbors. I can’t say what goes on, because I’m either at work(full time) or in class(full time). But the neighbors I do know do go to work every morning. I am just determined to be a positive influence not just to my children but to all of them.
Eddie,
My son can compete with the best of them academically. He is a second grader reading on a 5th grade level, doing some fourth work at home. He is ahead in all subjects, hence 100s in every subject. He can compete and be compared, because as a concerned parent it is my job to make sure he knows what he need to. He is a very bright child, who loves learning, and has influences that provides an atmosphere that is condusive for learning at all times. I thought about putting him in school in SE Huntsville, but now I refuse. He is not a “project kid” he is just a child. If you were to lay eyes on him could you tell where he is from… NO you wouldn’t.
I just want people to realize that things may not be as bad as they make it out to be. I am speaking for all of us who became HHA Residents that landing in the situation through no fault of my own. Trust me I did everything in my power not to be in public housing.. but when it came to it I didn’t allow it to define me. I have learned from my experiance that sometimes stuff happens and nothing can be done about it. But it is my outlook that makes the difference. I am just thankful that things are not worse. I was raised that it is not where you live it is how you live. My grandmother used to say if you have to live in a shoebox, keep it clean, raise your family with values and be kind to everyone. You never know when you will need the next person cause kindness doesn’t cost a thing.
I heard from someone who lives in Blossomwood that THEY are the ones who really pushed to move the projects out of their area and into South Huntsville because they wanted to improve their schools. And that is one reason why it was kept so quiet. Does anyone know if this is true? It would be interesting to see where the mayor, and the housing authority board members live, if they are all in that area. But if this is true it makes me mad that people are saying “no, it won’t degrade our schools” or I think it was the principal at Weatherly who said she could only see this as a positive change, but why then would this be the driver behind a group in Blossomwood pushing to get them out of their schools to make their schools better? And why do they have a stronger voice than us in South Huntsville?